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UPDATE:A year ago, we started this LML Project on my 2013 in hopes of dispelling myths and discovering limitations and opportunities for a full factory emissions "intact" daily driver.
Our LML Project Series has been one of our most read, and most shared write-ups we've produced to date.
I just made a new entry to the forum thread a few days ago with some crazy regen data and observations that were surprising. You can get the link at the end of this post where I've included the entire summary to date.
I also plan to be installing an emission compliant twin turbo kit from ATS this month so be on the lookout.
Project: LML Duramax Part 2: MBRP Downpipe InstallProject: LML Duramax Part 3: AirDog II 4G Install Results
This is the first post in a series of upcoming posts about my personal 2013 LML Duramax with factory equipped emissions.
With only an upgraded transmission from Inglewood Transmission ( see article for full description) and a few suspension and steering upgrades from DmaxStore I've been using my LML for building and testing stock tunes for over a year now. These emission friendly tunes REALLY wake up the LML. Frankly, I'm getting a little bored.
With a pile of parts sitting in the shop; including intake, lift pump, cp3 conversion, Danville 66mm stage 2 turbo, I'll be using these, with factory emissions in place, to see what we can get out of this beast.
I've already taken step one...
I ran some stock runs to set a baseline, then tuning only, then S&B Intake to start.
All testing will be on our ATP Dyno so relevant consistency in the numbers will be maintained as we pursue testing and reporting on each of our upgrades.
As with our other Project: Work Truck Series, I'll be reporting data and driving impressions throughout these upgrades.
You can catch the details, Dyno charts, and ongoing discussion about the results on the duramaxdiesel forum thread for this LML project. Here, this discussion branched into winter fuel impact, heavy tires, dyno differences, elevation, etc. (You may have to sign-up to view some graphs, but here they are.)
Here's a baseline peek:Stock tune made 325HP SAE correctedPerformance tune made 456HP SAE corrected5th gear pulls with 20% load
After S&B Intake install with dry filter:Stock Tune: Gain ~40hp
Performance Tune: Gain ~20HP
My forum comments:
"OK, don't shoot the messenger. This test was done with same stock tune and same performance tune as the first test, within hours of the first test, same dyno, same load and correction factor.
We didn't believe the results so we made multiple runs and all were within 5hp.
My stock intake had 17k miles on it and we didn't clean the MAF or anything else but installed the new S&B intake with a dry filter and a filter sock.
I'm going to review the MAF readings to see if the improved air flow allowed the ecm to add fuel. Either way 40hp on stock tune and 20hp on performance tune is really unbelievable. If someone else did the test and I read it on the internet, I'd say B.S. so take it for what it is. Even if it was half that on a stock truck, very cheap HP. "
Next up, we'll do the turbo and CP3. We did a 2015 in house with everything and was amazed at the performance but I didn't have the time for step by step comparison as it was a customers truck.
Lets' get to it!
Products from this article:
S&B Cold Air Intake
WF-1033 S & B Filters Filter Wrap
This WF-1033 Filter Wrap by S&B Filters fits the 75-5058 filter kit and keeps the big chunks out without reducing flow. This extends the life of of your air filter and protects your investment.
Here's a summary of the main discussion points from the forum thread I talked about at the top of this post.
Duramax Diesels Thread 63908 Summary
I thought you may find this interesting. This thread did branch off to other short discussions that were informative and constructive. There's a link to the full forum thread at the very bottom if you want to read the entire thread.
Here we go...
02-25-2015, 09:28 AMIdahoRob
LML mods and dyno testing begins
Outside of my Mike L built trans (working flawlessly) and leveling kit and wheels/tires from DMax Store, I've had my LML stock for over a year now. I have used it to build emissions friendly tuning for the stock trucks, which really wakes these up but getting bored.
I have a pile of parts sitting in the shop. Including, intake, lift pump, cp3 conversion, Danville 68mm stage 2r turbo.
This will be using all factory emissions in place.
Today is step one. Stock runs for base line, then tuning only, then S&B intake.
It'll be a week or so and then the lift pump will be added.
Another week or so an we'll do the turbo and CP3. We did a 2015 in house with everything and was amazed at the performance but I didn't have the time for step by step comparison as it was a customers truck.
I'll post up driving impressions and dyno graphs.
02-25-2015, 03:46 PMIdahoRob
Stock 2013 LML with full factory emissions intake and active. No lift pump or any mods outside of a MikeL Tranny, Running large heavy tires.
Stock tune made 325HP SAE correctedPerformance tune made 456HP SAE corrected5th gear pulls with 20% load
Performance tune drops rail to about 24k from a commanded 29k until about 3200 RPM and then starts dropping fast. Running mild tuning 13.5 degrees at 3000 RPM. I have made more HP but wanted to test with sane timing.
S and B going on now and then will test both tunes again.
LINK to Chart: lml_test_day_1.pdf___________
02-26-2015, 07:47 AMfast03
Stock tune seems about 20-25 hp lower than is should be. did the computer limit it during the dyno pull? This a post from MIkeL___________
02-26-2015, 09:16 AMIdahoRob
Agree, it is on the low side. The cool thing about having a dyno is testing winter fuel and heavy wheel/tire combo. This truck is running winter fuel which we see about 8% decrease in HP and a heavy wheel/tire combo which accounts for another 5% or so in my testing over time. These numbers vary according to HP and truck, etc.
The truck in the summer on stock wheels made 359hp, so the current winter fuel/tire combo is fairly accurate IMO. My dyno has proven over time to be a goldilocks, doesn't read too high, nor too low, but seems just about right.
Anyway, the dyno is just a tool to see changes. The air filter swap numbers blew my mind, stock and with performance tuning. I'll get around to that when time allows.___________
02-26-2015, 02:15 PMIdahoRob
I took the stock tune and just removed the speed limiter. By the looks of the dyno graph and the data logs the ecm isn't limiting anymore than the modded tunes.
Soot grams went from 11 to 22 after a day of dyno and road testing so that shouldn't have been a factor as the stock runs were when soot was in the 12-14 range. Rear tire diameter did change though...___________
02-26-2015, 08:26 PMMike L.
Let's keep this thread going as I am learning and enjoying this. I may have to duplicate Rob's mods. this is good stuff here.___________
02-27-2015, 09:46 AMIdahoRob
OK, don't shoot the messenger. This test was done with same stock tune and same performance tune as the first test, within hours of the first test, same dyno, same load and correction factor.
My stock intake had 17k miles on it and we didn't clean the MAF or anything else but installed the new intake with a dry filter and a filter sock.
I'm going to review the MAF readings to see if the improved air flow allowed the ecm to add fuel. Either way 40hp on stock tune and 20hp on performance tune is really unbelievable. If someone else did the test and I read it on the internet, I'd say B.S. so take it for what it is. Even if it was half that on a stock truck, very cheap HP.
Attached FilesFile Type: pdf lml intake test.pdf___________
02-27-2015, 10:43 AMfast03
So with new intake and dry filter, will the computer eventually "tune it out"? Did you get any maf or other codes?___________
02-27-2015, 11:01 AMIdahoRob
I don't see the ecm adapting, once I get some time i'll look at the logs and see if I can see the reason behind the HP increase. No codes on either tune with the intake. I'm running 34.5" tires.___________
02-27-2015, 11:03 AMIdahoRob
On the performance tune with the intake it boil the tires up through 3rd gear, even will smoke them pretty good from a 20-30mph roll.___________
02-27-2015, 02:20 PMsickdiesel
So far the only mods on the truck are S&B dry filter intake and Mike L's trans with Robs tuning.___________
02-27-2015, 02:33 PMDIESELMAFIAPER.LB7
I tell people lmls really see a difference with a s&b everyone said I was full of shit to___________
02-28-2015, 10:40 AMIdahoRob
The converter makes a huge difference on these LMLs. Mike L did some testing with different converters when I was down there and we compared and found some interesting results. Mike L has the package to really wake the drivability up on these.___________
02-28-2015, 08:42 PMDukcaln
I know the 2015 Truck Rob tuned, full emissions at the shop was really amazing. Turned that truck way up in my book___________
04-13-2015, 11:53 AMIdahoRob
I'm installing a MBRP turbo down pipe on the LML this week. The HP claim is 21hp and 24ft lbs. We will see how this piggy backs on the current mods with stock tune and modded tune.
I can tell you the install is not for the faint of heart. The install is much easier if done in conjunction with a transmission/converter install. Having the transmission out of the way really speeds things up and is much easier on the knuckles and the frustration level.
I should have the numbers for you later this week.
Any other mods people would like to see tested that will work with factory emissions, please let us know and we'll do our best to add to the list.___________
04-13-2015, 12:40 PMcatman3126
Are you comparing the Downpipe install to an LMM? it looks likes there is alot more room on the LML. and no shit on a LMM that thing is a bitch. I think the next one I do I will unbolt the cab and see if I can gain and inch or so raising it with the two post. anything would help.___________
04-13-2015, 01:12 PMIdahoRob
No I'm not. This isn't my first rodeo There are the sensors and injector to contend with as well as the different body/front diff/support mounts.___________
04-13-2015, 01:43 PM56taskforce
It will be interesting to see if the power gains are anywhere close to the claims. If anything your test should give it a better shot at claimed HP gains as with the other mods you have done should be creating a bottle neck at the stock pipe.___________
04-17-2015, 07:09 PMIdahoRob
Got the downpipe installed and put it on the dyno. I don't have back to back, same day numbers but I used same load, same tank of fuel, and same SAE correction factor. The truck is dropping rail psi bad still, lift pump is next test.
Dyno'd 500.xx RWHP right on the money with 40 soot grams (basically ready for a regen ).
So truck mods to date to hit this number; MikeL trans, ATP tuning, S & B dry intake, MBRP downpipe. I'm taking it to the track this weekend to compete in a NHRA event. It is a heavy pig now with the heavy bumpers and winch added to the aftermarket tires. Should be a decent test on real world HP.___________
04-17-2015, 07:37 PMDuramaxRamRod
So this was the same tune that made 475 RWHP with the intake?___________
04-18-2015, 12:57 PMIdahoRob
Yes. Same tune. Never touched the ecm after last test.___________
04-21-2015, 11:52 AMIdahoRob
I didn't get a chance to test on the stock tune as it went into regen right after the performance tune test.
That was fun as the 9th injector didn't seal properly and urea was spraying out everywhere. So for those that install a down pipe, make sure the copper washer is removed from the injector (at least in this case). The nut tightened up fine but I didn't notice the injector didn't seal properly. Basically it is like a flare nut and the injector needs to seat down against the bore in the down pipe. I'm glad that stuff isn't flammable, lol.
I'll try and do some more dyno testing to see what the stock tune does with current mods.
Next up a lift pump.___________
04-22-2015, 07:37 AMWI Huck
Good information. I would have never expected to see any gains like you are by changing out parts and keeping the DPF. I always thought the biggest restrictions were there and eliminating smaller restrictions in the system without fixing the biggest restriction would be useless. The only explanation would be that the DPF is not the biggest restriction after all. Thanks for the info!___________
06-26-2015, 11:41 AMIdahoRob
LML MBRP Downpipe install:Test vehicle: 2013 GMC LML with all factory emissions in place.To recap our previous testing please check out our Project LML blog http://atptrucks.com/blog/project-lml-duramax/
The downpipe manufacture HP claim is 21hp and 24ft lbs. We will see how this piggy backs on the current mods with HP tune and the S & B intake.
I can tell you the downpipe install is not for the faint of heart. The install is much easier if done in conjunction with a transmission/converter install. Having the transmission out of the way really speeds things up and is much easier on the knuckles and the frustration level.
Even with the transmission out of the way, the install still took about 3 hours. This wasn’t straight time as I dealt with a few interruptions along the way, but a good baseline none-the-less. If the transmission is in the truck, I’m estimating 4-6 hour install and some bloody knuckles. Everything bolted up fine without having to modify anything on the truck and no special tools needed.
I don't have back to back, same day numbers but I used same load and same SAE correction factor.
Dyno'd 500.66 RWHP with the DPF system showing 40 soot grams (basically ready for a regen). This shows a gain of approx. 25hp. I was a bit skeptical because the SAE correction factor showed a different percentage as the runs were during different days so I ran the uncorrected numbers and the downpipe showed a 16hp gain. The dyno graphs show the info on the different conditions of the runs. Personally I’m leaning towards a 20HP gain.
So truck mods to date to hit this 500hp number; MikeL trans, ATP tuning, S & B dry intake, MBRP downpipe. The next test will be an AirDog 4G lift pump. With the rail pressure dropping under load, I feel this will be a nice addition to HP and longevity of the fuel system. Stay tuned.
Attached FilesFile Type: pdf lml intake, downpipe sae.pdfFile Type: pdf lml intake, downpipe uncorrected.pdf___________
07-12-2015, 09:56 PMDukcaln
impressive to say the least Rob___________
07-23-2015, 03:16 PMIdahoRob
Still running all factory emissions.
We added an Airdog 4G lift pump to the truck. Driving impressions; The truck seems to have better throttle response in a mild tune just with mild TPS input. May of been just my mind justifying the pump, but since it is my daily driver, I have a good feel for the truck.
This pump is almost silent. I cannot hear it with the key on and engine off sitting in the cab. Standing next to the truck with engine off, you have to bend down and put your head next to the pump to hear it is running.
On to the dyno numbers. Same tune as all the other testing was used. Soot grams up to 39 grams about where the last test pull of 500HP was. The truck made 532RWHP. The curve is much better with added HP coming in the full length of the pull. The SAE correction was higher today but so was the temp(94* compared to 77*) and the Humidity was also higher (39% compared to 13%) so I feel fairly accurate gain between tests.
Attached FilesFile Type: pdf lml dyno with lp.pdf___________
07-23-2015, 03:44 PMIdahoRob
I tested at the track before the lift pump install. The same tune that made 500HP without a lift pump didn't perform on the 1/4 mile. Dropped rail bad about 3rd gear and didn't recover for a while running 14.2's with 2.0 60' times.
I installed a tow tune with mild pulse and the truck went 13.8 with the same 60' times.
So 500hp on the dyno before lift pump really wasn't a 500hp tune on the street under full load conditions. I feel the lift pump will be a much better addition for performance driving conditions compared to short dyno pulls of a few seconds. So IMHO the lift pump is the best bang for the buck that we have tested to date (besides tuning that is)___________
07-24-2015, 07:35 AMfast03
The results make me want to buy a lift pump and downpipe and finally get this truck tuned. Problem is I don't have 4k for a trans right now...lol On a serious note, what about regen frequency? I would think it would be up quite a bit.___________
07-24-2015, 10:11 AMIdahoRob
The regens with this tune are not too much different than stock. I'm around 350 miles in city driving and bumping up to the 700 mile limit on all highway driving. DEF usage seems lower, I'm not sure why. Winter fuel increases regens for sure. I averaged 18.2 mpg on a trip to Oregon for racing and that included 10 passes on the 1/4 mile and about 20% city driving (before the lift pump install).
I will say when I bought this truck stock, I wouldn't even drive it as the dead peddle was so bad.
Now, I can honestly say this is the most fun duramax I have owned for street driving and I've owned some good ones. The truck spools amazingly and has a very quick feel for how heavy it is.
I do not recommend buying a LML and think you are going to build a 10 or 11 second truck as the efi live tuning is no where close to tuning a highly modded LML. Still way to many hidden limiters and tables that do nothing. But for a really fun daily driver, the LML is a blast. with tuning and a few bolt ons.___________
07-29-2015, 11:19 PMDukcaln
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a LML and keep full emissions and let Rob tune it! California emission of course....
Thank for all the input and testing Rob___________HERE's the LATEST ENTRY:03-07-2016, 02:16 PMIdahoRob
Here's an update on this long term project with some data. I have been using the same 530hp tune that was loaded back last summer.
I’ve kept detailed data on regens since last summer. The regens during the fall and winter have been less frequent for some reason. All City driving and the truck will regen on average once in a tank (450-500 miles).
I was shocked on the results of some long mileage testing this winter. Mostly highway driving on the first test. I made a 750 mile trip, 70 mph average into a heavy head wind, some 4x4 and snow and a load in the bed, the truck gained 10 soot grams during this trip. It didn’t regen in that trip, which surprised me as I had heard that the LML will regen every 700 miles even if the DPF is not full.
I then made another trip covering 900 miles, averaging 83 miles per hour when on the highway(we have 80mph speed limit). I had about 200 city miles on it since last regen and was sitting at 15 soot grams before hitting the highway. I went 400 miles and gained only 1 soot gram. Next day drove 200 miles with some wide open blasts and gained 7 soot grams (went and visited some tuning clients and took it out for some HP testing). So the truck was sitting at 22 soot grams and had approx. 800 miles on it without a regen. The next day I was back on the highway for a 400 mile trip home. 80+ mph and the truck actually lost 3 soot grams down to 19 soot grams, in the next 200 miles. Conditions must have been just right and it was passively burning any particulate that the engine was making.
I finally found the limit my truck will go before it manually regens, 1000 miles on the button. The truck was at 19 soot grams total gained at the 1000 mile mark and it went into regen. Normal regen takes place at 44 soot grams. The truck had no reason to regen except a fail-safe setting in the ecm. Pissed me off as I wanted to see how far it could go without regen. At least I now have hard, concrete evidence that there is a forced regen at 1000 miles and not the 700 mile range previously thought.
Pretty cool numbers on a 500+HP tune. I’m not sure why the regens are less frequent, I have a hard time believing it is the aftermarket hard parts added but the numbers are what they are.
My next test is installing an emission compliant twin turbo kit from ATS. They have been working very hard on a compliant kit that keeps the heat in the exhaust side of the system. This heat is needed in passive and active regen. I’m really looking forward to gaining data on how this turbo set-up will work on the regen side, as well as, the HP side of things. The goal is to have it installed this month and I’ll make sure to do a write up.Update to the thread today on some additional and interesting regen data.
Follow the current update and all the comments on this thread: http://duramaxdiesels.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63908.